Talk:Republic of Nordale

Entrance into international scene, ratification of the Kinnon Convention

Would you be able to stop removing the addition about Misberia and Hrafnarfjall revoking their support? Dionisiy (talk) 09:54, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I've tried to compile the two texts into a version which I'm hoping will be the least unacceptable to both of you. If either of you has a problem with the way I've worded it, please let's work this out civilly. There's no need for insults, no need for edit wars. Let's just discuss this like rational wiki users and try to come to a mutually acceptable wording. (Or if you're both fine with how I've merged the two versions then great!) Austenasia (talk) 17:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

The current revision is still problematic, I believe, for at least three reasons:

1. The references are supposed to be used for backing the claims made in the article, not for turning it into a "he said this she said that" contest. The article states that the denunciation was made, which is true, however the screenshots don't back up that the denunciation was made. It is also for the same reason I haven't added a screenshot of Sophia Albina's remark about Dionisiy "hanging himself".
2. The phrase "disruptive and malicious behavior within the community" can only go in quotation marks, for it is a value judgement rather than an established fact. Sophia Albina is entitled to her opinion, of course, but there are plenty of people who'd disagree with her, and probably just as many people who consider her own behavior disruptive and malicious, but MicroWiki deals with facts rather than subjective opinions. The screenshot with which she "references" her claim is simply irrelevant to the article and only proves that there was an argument between me and Adam, not that the value judgement is an established fact.
3. The phrase "implying that ironically, the pair must have sought out private information against the Citizen-Premier while they themselves denounced the exposure of supposedly private information" is unencyclopedic and simply doesn't belong to the article. MicroWiki is a place for facts, not for "implications".

I should add that I believe Sophia Albina is fully entitled to decide which facts in her micronation's history are notable and which aren't, so if she prefers to scrub the section away altogether, I'm fine with that. However, if she considers these events notable enough, then they should be highlighted in a neutral way and without hiding the facts that she may consider inconvenient. Yaroslav (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Hey Zed here voicing his opinion neither of you will read; the denunciation and similar articles are already cited here so I do not see the need for those screenshots to be cited as well; I suppose quotation marks can be used but so long as the text uses neutral wording without claiming fact (i.e. 'alleged' or 'claimed') it should not be a problem. Also I would suggest the following text: (this one is without citations):

"On 25 Vendémiaire 229, Citizen-Premier Sophia Albina released a denunciation accusing Yaroslav Mar, Ivan Brienovič, and Dionisiy Tezdzhan-Smahin of racism, bigotry towards LGBT people, and disruptive and malicious behavior within the micronational community. Several nations, namely New Virginia, the Misberian Confederacy, the State of Sandus, and the Kingdom of Hrafnarfjall supported the initial declaration, later leading to the creation of an international denunciation with the support of the aforementioned states. Upon its release, the denunciation was met with criticism for including foul language as well as using Tezdzhan-Smahin's real name – which he kept private – and it was ultimately banned from distribution on MicroWiki over violation of community standards. Following the backlash it received, Hrafnarfjall and Misberia revoked their signatures, with Misberia apologizing to Mar and Tezdzhan-Smahin for their involvement. Meanwhile, Mar and Tezdzhan-Smahin considered legal action against Albina for an alleged copyright violation, as the news article was illustrated with a photo taken from Tezdzhan-Smahin's company website. The legal threats included an incorrect guess that Albina lived in a certain city in the Bay Area, and Albina accused that the pair must have sought out private information against the Citizen-Premier while they themselves denounced the exposure of supposedly private information. Mar claimed that the information had been derived from publicly-available sources and that he had no intention of actually releasing private information." — Ultimately, the initial news article and Albina apparently telling Mar to hang himself are not really relevant to the actual history of the nation in my opinion. Also I think this is kinda neutral idk. ★ ♥︎ Zed 。 ～ (talk | edits | full) 21:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

The incitement to suicide is very much relevant as it's the continuation of the same incident. Yaroslav (talk) 22:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Yaroslav was obviously warned that another edit to this page would result in a 6 month ban. I don't see why this is even being considered anymore. He has repeatedly attempted to remove screenshots of the evidence and then say there is no evidence. Yaroslav and Dionisiy are once more avoiding accountability for their clear violations of community morals. It's not about "drama", it's about basic human decency which Smahin and Mar have had a very difficult time adhering to in any meaningful way. I appreciate your efforts here Zed, but again, this is ridiculous and has gone on for far too long. I've been banned from spaces in the community for far less than what Mar has tried to do. PremierOfNordale (talk) 22:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Sophia, I can't find any instance of Yaroslav being threatened with a 6 month ban. No page is "off-limits" to another user; it's a wiki, and if he wants to add, remove or amend some content then he has every right to so as long as he can back up his reasons, hence the discussion I've opened here. It's also ironic that you're accusing them of "violating community morals" when you just used Dion's macronational name again; please be more careful. I think Zed's proposed wording is actually an improvement on mine. Would both you and Yaroslav agree to that? Austenasia (talk) 22:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Zed's version isn't bad, but I believe that what is now in footnotes — that the context is disputed — should be added to the text. The reference to suicide should also stay as it's the continuation of the same incident. Yaroslav (talk) 22:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

If you care about "basic human decency" so much, perhaps not saying that you greatest wish is to see a fellow community member hang himself would be a good start. Yaroslav (talk) 22:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Yaroslav, I don't care, I really don't! You can only push people so damn far before they snap, something you and your buddy specialize in. Your ideal world is that all the screenshots are removed so that for some mysterious reason you maintain a standing in this community you didn't earn and don't deserve. I want the screenshots retain, and I want the criticism for "foul language" to be specifically cited as being of Mar and Dion because no one else has made this criticism and I'm not even allowed to post the denunciation because it hurts Mar's so precious feelings. Perhaps when you call female micronatioanlists "men posing as females" you should have a bit of a thicker skin. PremierOfNordale (talk) 22:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Right, I've made some further edits based primarily on Zed's suggestion. Sophia, final warning, please stop using Dionisiy's macronational name. Austenasia (talk) 22:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for honestly admitting that you don't care about basic human decency, just that it's a bit weird to accuse me of not adhering to it then. As of "pushing people", the first time I even heard of you was when you posted your ridiculous "denunciation". Yaroslav (talk) 23:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Reinstate the citations and footnotes and I will be fine with it.(talk) 22:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

So long as it's clear why they're relevant to the text, I've no problem with that. Yaroslav, is there a wording you'd be happy with to enable that? Austenasia (talk) 23:00, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, Yaroslav, what are you referring to as "foul language"? Austenasia (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

The references aren't relevant to the text, nor to the "denunciation". By foul language I mean Sophia calling me and Dionisiy "miserable dogs" in her "denunciation". It's not a claim that I make but a fact. Yaroslav (talk) 23:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

The references are clearly evidence for what I am claiming, which you have removed in the past or edited that there is "no evidence". "Miserable dogs" is not foul language. Maybe aggressive language? The fact is is that you simply want evidence removed, which doesn't surprise me, as even using your names is wrong since it associates you with your own awful diatribes about transgender women. (talk)

00:10, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

You can claim whatever you want but MicroWiki articles reflect facts, not your subjective opinions or value judgements. The only fact here is that your "denunciation" was indeed posted. Since your screenshots cannot be used as evidence that it was posted — but rather they are, presumably, why you decided to post it — they don't belong in the article. Also quite ironic that someone who demands to be addressed by a preferred pronoun refuses to address others by their preferred name, in a direct violation of MicroWiki:Pseudonyms. Yaroslav (talk) 01:19, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I've got to agree with Sophia, "miserable dogs" isn't "foul language", not in the sense that phrase is usually used in English. Someone seeing "foul language" would expect it to be referring to profanities or sexual expletives, not "miserable dogs". "Aggressive language" does seem more apt, but then I think it'd be hard to find any sort of denunciation which doesn't have a bit of an "aggressive" tone.
Saying "a denuncation was made accusing Mar of X[screenshot of him saying X]" isn't really the way references are usually used, no; the reference would be to the denunciation itself, with the actual evidence on there, not the wiki page. However, given the denunciation itself won't be linked to unless the proper pseudonyms are used, the screenshots do give the reader an idea as to why the denunciation was felt to be appropriate, although I've got to admit the "greatest micronationalist" one isn't really relevant to anything.
The main point of contention seems to be the feeling, Yaroslav, that you're trying to "conceal evidence". So long as you're able to supply whatever context you feel is missing, I think it's fair that the two other screenshots remain, and I think it's also fair in that case that a screenshot can be used to provide evidence for the hanging incident. Austenasia (talk) 08:26, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Right, how's that? Austenasia (talk) 08:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The version as it stands is acceptable. However, I will state this : The comparison of a MicroWiki pseudonym with the name of a transgender person is repulsive. I thank my pal Yaroslav for confirming once more to this community what has always been obvious : Yaroslav holds an extreme and unbridled bigotry and hatred for transgender people and sees them as lesser. PremierOfNordale (talk) 09:13, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I believe — just like the majority of the world's population — that gender is defined by biology. It doesn't mean that I hate you as a person, nor does it give you the right to throw around personal insults and incite to suicide. And yes, demanding to be addressed by a preferred pronoun while refusing to address others by a preferred name is hypocritical. Yaroslav (talk) 09:54, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

A micronational pseudonym is not the same as a preferred pronoun, despite however you want to present it. You and Dionisiy changing your names to talk about small countries on MicroWiki is categorically and qualitatively different from a transgender person wanting to be referred to in line with the gender that they are. You have a really difficult time with understanding, which is no surprise coming from you with your strange delusions of grandeur. Most of the people in the community see you as you are : as venal and small-minded and full of hate and bigotry. I hope someday you see the errors of your ways and how they have hurt people who did not deserve it. It would be a healing experience for you. What's extremely funny to me is that your whole arguments about the "fashionability of posing as a man" isn't even true just by looking at the timelines of the people who you accuse of being such, and everyone knows it, including you. PremierOfNordale (talk) 10:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I do not wish to argue you on the part on transgender individuals in order not to unnecessarily harm anyone's feelings. But fact of the matter is that from the person talking about "basic human decency" the minimum of what you could do is address someone the way he or she asks to be addressed, this is indeed the same as asking a person with different opinions on the gender question to refer to you by the requested pronouns or name. You yourself are also using a Pseudonym and both Yaroslav and myself have always respected that. Dionisiy (talk) 10:37, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Guys come on this isn't the place for this. Personally I agree that a micronational pseudonym isn't really on the same level as a trans person's preferred pronoun, but insofar as wiki policy goes we can't really make "ranks" or "tiers" for it because if we don't enforce it consistently then there'd be even more trouble. So long as everyone addresses each person as they wish to be addressed regarding names and pronouns, there's no problem. Austenasia (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

You claim that I'm "full of hate", yet say that your biggest dream is seeing a fellow micronationalist hang himself? Look in the mirror. Yaroslav (talk) 12:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Enough now please, let's keep discussion on here directly relevant to the wording of the article. Austenasia (talk) 12:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)